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 Ground Zeroes 
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Leopardo

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Leopardo

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:34 am
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Post Ground Zeroes
So, Ground Zeros was released while the forum was down. Did any you guys check it out? If not, spoiler alert!

I got the PS3 version, and I love the gameplay. Obviously, it bears almost no resemblance to even MGS2 at this point (I mean, there's still hanging...), and while I would like to play something with the older style, I still very much appreciate this for what it is. It's fun stealth that's different from the fun stealth of the past. I would've liked to see more Codec conversations, but even Peace Walker had that problem.

The story is a mixed bag for me. Overall, I think it sets up Phantom Pain very well, but the particulars of Ground Zero itself are extremely controversial to say the least. So, the story that we're given is short and bear bones, and the main thing that happens is that Mother Base is destroyed by XOF. There were some good moments, like the cutscenes were Snake makes contact with Chico and then with Paz (the Paz one in particular was a really nice couple of seconds). However, the game is also very politically motivated. It deals with modern political issues like the existence of Guantanamo Bay and how the United States handles foreign POW's that aren't under the flag of a nation and torture. I know SuperBunnyHop was not really a fan of this aspect of the story, as he thought it could've been more, but I think there is a good message to take away from it and I would say I like it.

There are numerous tapes throughout the game (some collectible, some given to you) that provide backstory. These are generally good, although Chico's tapes were not as interesting to listen to as the briefing ones, and it seems like they all should have been made cutscenes in my opinion. But, it's impossible to talk about this without at least mentioning the rape scene. I guess I understand what Kojima was trying to get at - it's a punishment for both Paz and Chico - but it seems somewhat forced and Skullface's dialogue about Chico being a man or liking what he sees is a little weird. Furthermore, Paz is symbolically raped again with the obvious placement of the second bomb at the end. I thought that the cutscene that showed the surgery to extract the first bomb from Paz's stomach was really good (although, that cutscene was just another controversial aspect of the game and was censored in Japan), the way she jumps out of the helicopter to sacrifice herself seconds before the second bomb explodes seems cheesy. Honestly, it reminds me of how Eva was brought back in MGS4 after being a major character of MGS3 and dies very soon after when she could've been a memorable character again. I feel like it degrades the previous title to give characters such poor deaths right after reintroducing them.

While the shortness of the game was another controversial aspect, I think it was well worth my $30. The first time you play the main mission, it does take about two hours. But you can sink as much or as little time into replaying the main mission and side ops as you want. So, that does not bother me as much. But, I have friends who reasonably dislike the whole idea of spending money on the prologue which really should be a part of the main game, and Ground Zeros is unable to stand by itself as a full entry. But, in reality, how you feel about the idea of releasing a prologue is really subjective, and I'm not hear to change anybody's mind about the decision, but I am personally fine with it.

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Tue Apr 29, 2014 11:52 pm
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Inhert

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Post Re: Ground Zeroes
ZOE 3 was cancelled to make way for /this/.
Remember that.


Wed Apr 30, 2014 12:34 am
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Leopardo

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Post Re: Ground Zeroes
helldiver450 wrote:
ZOE 3 was cancelled to make way for /this/.
Remember that.


Y'know, you're saying that in such a way as to demean Ground Zeroes, and while I'd love to see a ZOE3, I still love Ground Zeroes. It's a fantastic game, well worth its price and definitely longer than most people give it credit for.

VicViper_Leo wrote:
So, Ground Zeros was released while the forum was down. Did any you guys check it out? If not, spoiler alert!

I got the PS3 version, and I love the gameplay. Obviously, it bears almost no resemblance to even MGS2 at this point (I mean, there's still hanging...), and while I would like to play something with the older style, I still very much appreciate this for what it is. It's fun stealth that's different from the fun stealth of the past. I would've liked to see more Codec conversations, but even Peace Walker had that problem.


Don't forget first-person aiming, although I rarely ever use it. And jump-out shots, but they can be tough to pull off. It is sad that the Codec/radio has been diminished to "press a single button and a single person will talk to you", because even Rising had better Codec conversations.

Quote:
The story is a mixed bag for me. Overall, I think it sets up Phantom Pain very well, but the particulars of Ground Zero itself are extremely controversial to say the least. So, the story that we're given is short and bear bones, and the main thing that happens is that Mother Base is destroyed by XOF. There were some good moments, like the cutscenes were Snake makes contact with Chico and then with Paz (the Paz one in particular was a really nice couple of seconds). However, the game is also very politically motivated. It deals with modern political issues like the existence of Guantanamo Bay and how the United States handles foreign POW's that aren't under the flag of a nation and torture. I know SuperBunnyHop was not really a fan of this aspect of the story, as he thought it could've been more, but I think there is a good message to take away from it and I would say I like it.


Ground Zeroes' problem is that it's just a Tanker to a Plant. A Virtuous Mission to an Operation Snake Eater. It's not horrible as a standalone release, but it probably shouldn't have been a standalone release. The political stuff was pretty light this time around, but I guarantee it'll be the main focus of The Phantom Pain.

Quote:
There are numerous tapes throughout the game (some collectible, some given to you) that provide backstory. These are generally good, although Chico's tapes were not as interesting to listen to as the briefing ones, and it seems like they all should have been made cutscenes in my opinion. But, it's impossible to talk about this without at least mentioning the rape scene. I guess I understand what Kojima was trying to get at - it's a punishment for both Paz and Chico - but it seems somewhat forced and Skullface's dialogue about Chico being a man or liking what he sees is a little weird. Furthermore, Paz is symbolically raped again with the obvious placement of the second bomb at the end. I thought that the cutscene that showed the surgery to extract the first bomb from Paz's stomach was really good (although, that cutscene was just another controversial aspect of the game and was censored in Japan), the way she jumps out of the helicopter to sacrifice herself seconds before the second bomb explodes seems cheesy. Honestly, it reminds me of how Eva was brought back in MGS4 after being a major character of MGS3 and dies very soon after when she could've been a memorable character again. I feel like it degrades the previous title to give characters such poor deaths right after reintroducing them.


I thought the tapes were pretty good. Not really on par with "But I do know that NORAD uses its radar to track Santa Claus" but quite informative and, I feel, it really made Kiefer Sutherland seem like he wanted to play Big Boss. His lines in the gameplay are few and far between, but he actually put some work into the cassette tapes. I actually thought the "Chico rapes Paz" tape was executed well, and went a long way to setting up Ghostface Killah... um, Skullface as a pretty damn good badguy. I really want to see him have a face-to-face scene with Zero in The Phantom Pain.

Interestingly, the placement of the second bomb was not as obvious as I thought it was. I've talked to plenty of people online who believed it was in her head. When she didn't finish her sentence ("There's another... in my...") I thought it was pretty obvious that it was in her snatch, but I guess some people just didn't want to think that way.

Quote:
While the shortness of the game was another controversial aspect, I think it was well worth my $30. The first time you play the main mission, it does take about two hours. But you can sink as much or as little time into replaying the main mission and side ops as you want. So, that does not bother me as much. But, I have friends who reasonably dislike the whole idea of spending money on the prologue which really should be a part of the main game, and Ground Zeros is unable to stand by itself as a full entry. But, in reality, how you feel about the idea of releasing a prologue is really subjective, and I'm not hear to change anybody's mind about the decision, but I am personally fine with it.


I am so pissed off at the people who keep bitching about the price and the length. Ground Zeroes has never been a two hour game, and that should have been obvious from the beginning. The main mission is, as you say, two hours, but this is still about the same length of time people spend on a Call of Duty campaign, and people pay $60 for that! There should never have been all those fuckers with speed-runs screwing it up, too. If it hadn't been for them, this stigma over the length would have never happened.

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Wed Apr 30, 2014 6:18 am
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Leopardo

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Leopardo

Joined: Sat Jan 02, 2010 10:34 am
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Post Re: Ground Zeroes
I do want to point out that while some people complain about this or that element of the story, the immediate story is actually really intense. I think the tapes did a good job of creating this feeling, although I would've preferred cutscenes. But the entire situation about the UN inspection followed by news that Paz is alive and then that Chico is captured is tense. It is underscored by the fact that you have to go out in the middle of the night in the middle of a horrible storm to rescue them and miss the inspection. When you see the base for the first time, with the helicopters flying over head, with the great lighting for that scene, it just makes you feel that this entire situation is really important. I love it!

When you combine that with the obvious transformation of Big Boss into more of an anti-US / villain character, it adds more to that feeling. Super Bunny Hop did a really good job of explaining this: Big Boss and his army is not innocent here. At one point Huey tells Big Boss that document destruction is complete and the nuke is hidden, and Super Bunny Hop makes the a funny point about Big Boss's schedule mirroring Saddam Hussein circa 2003. That's a powerful moment, I think.

You might find this very interesting. I don't agree with him on every point he makes, but he's very thoughtful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OABF4AsUec

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Thu May 01, 2014 5:52 pm
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Leopardo

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Location: Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start
Post Re: Ground Zeroes
VicViper_Leo wrote:
I do want to point out that while some people complain about this or that element of the story, the immediate story is actually really intense. I think the tapes did a good job of creating this feeling, although I would've preferred cutscenes. But the entire situation about the UN inspection followed by news that Paz is alive and then that Chico is captured is tense. It is underscored by the fact that you have to go out in the middle of the night in the middle of a horrible storm to rescue them and miss the inspection. When you see the base for the first time, with the helicopters flying over head, with the great lighting for that scene, it just makes you feel that this entire situation is really important. I love it!


The opening cutscene, ever since we first saw it, a year and a half ago (at PAX 2012, it's been a damn long time), has always been a very well-executed scene (minus the device that would make tattoo removal as painless and easy as possible, and the holographic cellphone upgrade that exists ten years before cellphones). Ever since then, I wondered about Skullface, why Chico went after Paz (I actually had forgotten the Peace Walker tapes mentioning his affection for her). The story of Ground Zeroes is a very effective Tanker to the upcoming Phantom Pain/Plant. I feel that it stands alone well, though it will be significantly better once The Phantom Pain is released next year.

Quote:
When you combine that with the obvious transformation of Big Boss into more of an anti-US / villain character, it adds more to that feeling. Super Bunny Hop did a really good job of explaining this: Big Boss and his army is not innocent here. At one point Huey tells Big Boss that document destruction is complete and the nuke is hidden, and Super Bunny Hop makes the a funny point about Big Boss's schedule mirroring Saddam Hussein circa 2003. That's a powerful moment, I think.

You might find this very interesting. I don't agree with him on every point he makes, but he's very thoughtful.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OABF4AsUec


I watched that video, and while he makes some pretty good points, I have to say I just plain disagree with some things he says.

- He claims that Camp Omega (obviously Guantanamo Bay) has no reason to exist in a pre-9/11 world, when he also brings up the fact that the claim for the land was signed many many years ago (near the beginning of the 20th century). Camp Omega actually makes quite a bit of sense when you think about the black ops of the Cold War, and the aftermath of World War II (back when the East and the West were both wrangling up Nazi scientists to use for their own nuclear and space programs). In the universe of Metal Gear alone, Camp Omega makes sense, because you could venture a guess that the prisoners and refugees from the San Hieronymo Takeover were sent to Camp Omega to avoid giving the Soviets asylum or to lock up the Americans for treason.
- He claims that getting the "optional" ending of Peace Walker involves "days" of "grinding". Start to finish (and I mean that "optional" ending), Peace Walker took me two days, and involved no "grinding". The only thing that gave me any trouble was finding Zadornov in Mother Base just before the ZEKE battle, there's not a goddamn thing "optional" about that ending, it's very integral (finish Peace Walker Battle 3, get to the end of the credits "TO BE CONTINUED IN CHAPTER FIVE: OUTER HEAVEN").
- He talks about how the tapes are ineffective because they require you unlocking them. I didn't check out his other videos, so I don't know if he's done this yet, but I'd love to hear what he says about Resident Evil 6, which requires you to shoot some emblems to get files that you probably won't know are in the game unless you go to a specific section on the menu, far less obvious than the cassette tapes in Ground Zeroes, which are brought to your attention during the story. I've never heard anyone complain about how you listen to the tapes in Peace Walker, and you could very easily miss those.
- Chico wasn't fucking standing in the cutscenes, he was on his knees, watch it again, it's pretty obvious.

There are some things I enjoyed in his video, Specifically the Sacco & Vansetti stuff that I might have understood on some level (I learned about the Sacco/Vansetti stuff long ago, but not much and I've probably forgotten everything I'd learned about them aside from their names), but his showing that clip from the film, where the "world without borders" was mentioned. That stuff was all great.

The video was pretty damn good, but there are some things that he just either doesn't read into or reads too much into (the Monster Hunter stuff in Peace Walker is very optional, and should not be taken into context of the story with the rest of the series; why the hell didn't he bring up the cassette tape where Big Boss mentions believing in Santa Claus, my favorite briefing-related dialogue in the entire series, and it's actually fucking canon!). He needs to learn what to read into and what not to.

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"Well, just look at all the fucks I give!" - Abridged Yusei Fudo, Yu-Gi-Oh! Bonds Beyond Time, Abridged.

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Fri May 02, 2014 3:17 pm
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Leopardo

Leopardo

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Post Re: Ground Zeroes
Here's an interesting tidbit of information:

Beating all the missions on Hard gives you a cassette tape that has "Beyond the Bounds" on it. The interesting thing is, this "Beyond the Bounds" is not on any version of ZOE2, it's a completely different remix. Is this a hint that there may be a future sequel to ZOE2?

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"Well, just look at all the fucks I give!" - Abridged Yusei Fudo, Yu-Gi-Oh! Bonds Beyond Time, Abridged.

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Tue May 06, 2014 9:06 am
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